confused about charging

I am also considering buying an e-golf and am a bit confused about the charging situation. I would prefer to just buy the SE model because of how much cheaper it is, but am wondering whether that comes with untenable long charging times. Can anyone speak to

1) how long the SE takes with the regular pluck in charger for 110V to charge?

2) Does is charge quicker at public charging stations because they are 220 V?

3) I am speaking to my landlord about getting a different charging system installed, what is the information he needs to get an electrician out? Can I charge of 110 V but with higher amperage or how does this work?

4) How common are the DC fast chargers in the LA area? Are they faster than the 240 V/higher amp charging stations? What is the difference here? I was told they are extremely rare and hard to find, is this true?

Thanks a million for your time!

skorpionfisch said:

1) how long the SE takes with the regular pluck in charger for 110V to charge?

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This is where I'll admit I'm confused too. The number I keep seeing is 20 hours; I believe this is at 12 amp. Not sure if 16 amp is supported.

skorpionfisch said:

2) Does is charge quicker at public charging stations because they are 220 V?

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Absolutely. Here the charge time is 8 hours for the SE and 4 hours for the SEL (or 2015 Limited Edition)

skorpionfisch said:

3) I am speaking to my landlord about getting a different charging system installed, what is the information he needs to get an electrician out? Can I charge of 110 V but with higher amperage or how does this work?

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Depends on #1 in combination with your range and usage requirements. Most folks doing regular home charging will install a dedicated high-voltage circuit so they can get a overnight charge guaranteed.

skorpionfisch said:

4) How common are the DC fast chargers in the LA area? Are they faster than the 240 V/higher amp charging stations? What is the difference here? I was told they are extremely rare and hard to find, is this true?

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Best way to see for yourself is the PlugShare app - anything in orange is DC fast charger and yes it provides for a 80% charge in 30 miles and full charge in 1 hour. Make sure to check the adapter type - the e-Golf takes the CCS/SAE combo. Note that it's only intended for occasional situations where you need to exceed 80 miles in a single day. Going beyond that could potentially void the battery warranty.

http://www.myvwegolf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=575

We really need to see about getting some "sticky" threads on here. This is one of the subjects that comes up a lot.

These are the ways to charge the e-Golf, starting with the slowest.
Note: the terms in quotes are not the technical terms assigned by SAE, but they are well understood in the EV community.

"Level 1" - The provided 120V charging cord is a prime example. It plugs into an American household three prong outlet. This particular one signals the car that it can draw 12 amps. That is important because EV charging is only allowed to draw 80% of the outlet's rating, which is 15 amps for standard three prong outlets.
Charging speed: 120VAC * 12 Amps / 1000 * 85% = 1.224 kW into the battery. The 85% is an approximation of the on-board charger's efficiency. If you drive with 4mi/kWh efficiency, you will get about 5 miles of range per hour of charging

"Level 2" - Any charging station that runs on more than 200V AC is considered Level 2. The amperage that these stations can deliver varies between 12 amps and 80 amps. The car will draw the lesser of the charging station rating or the car's on-board charger rating. The e-Golf SE has a 16 amp charger and the others (LE and SEL) have 32 amp on-board chargers.
Charging speed:
- slow example - Public Station with e-Golf SE: 208VAC * 16 amps / 1000 * 85% = 2.83kW 4mi/kWh * 2.83kW = 11.32 mi/hr
- fast example - Home Station with e-Golf SEL: 240VAC * 32 amps / 1000 * 85% = 6.53kW 4mi/kWh * 6.53kW = 26.12 mi/hr

"Level 3" - DC Fast Charging - This kind of public station is an external charger that connects directly to the EV's battery. The car tells the charger how much current it wants and the charger delivers as much as it can up to its current limit.
Charging speed:
- slow example - ChargePoint Express 100 - 60 amp DC limit - 340VDC * 60 amps / 1000 = 20.4kW 4mi/kWh * 20.4kW * 1/2hr = 40 miles in 30 minute session
- fast example - ABB 53CJ - 125 amp DC limit - 340VDC * 100 amps / 1000 = 34kW 4 mi/kWh * 34 * 1/2hr = 68 miles in 30 minute session

Fast charging is subject to extreme slowdown as the battery pack gets full. The ABB example is using averaged numbers, but reflect approximately what I got during an actual charging session. That was 13%-92% in 30 minutes. Multiply that 79% battery increase by the EPA range of 83 miles and you get 65.5 miles. The charging slows down dramatically at 80% SOC (State of Charge).

Talking about home charging, I don't like to talk about how long it takes to charge because you don't run the battery down all the way before you charge, you charge every night so that it's full in the morning. So, you can see that it might take 18 hours to charge on the included cord, but if you drive less than 50 miles per day, you can get by with that charge cord as long as you are home with guaranteed access to an outlet for 10 hours per night.

I like to think of it this way...

Level 1 is charging with 100 + volts, usually 120V at 12 amps continuous... a normal 15 amp wall Outlet. Some wall plugs at 120V like near the washer and dryer are 20 amp rated outlets. In this case, charge rate and amps drawn is limited by the EVSE unit.

Level 2 is 200 + volts, 208V if a commercial building, 240V if residential. What usually limits the charge rate in this case is the charger pack on board the car, do you have a premium 7.2 kw charger on board ( all 2015 e-Golfs, SEL and LE have this charger, as well as 2016 SEL's), or the 3.6kw unit that comes with most 2016 SE models. Later model 2016 SE's are supposed to have the 7.2kw option charger pack, probably at a premium priced option. 240V at 30 amps ( 30 amp charger in the SEL's and LE) and 240V at 15 amps (15 amp charger in the 2016 SE) will give you 7.2 and 3.6 kw per hour. However 208V commercial at almost all business outlets is not quite that... 6.0 to 6.4 kw and 3.0 to 3.2 kw in the 15 amp charger, so it's slower charging, about 15 to 17% slower, on commercial units.

You can future proof, and hook up a 50 amp, or 40 amp EVSE in your home, if your electric panel and load calculations will allow such sizing, think BEV's with futuristic 150 to 200 miles of range, but the e-Golf' charger packs will still limit the charge to the batteries to 30 amps input, or 15 amps input, regardless of voltage, 240V residential or 208V commercial.


Level 3 is 300 +, usually around 340 to 360V or more in DC current at 70 amps or more... 24kwh in the smaller Charge Point 100 units, BMW and Vw chargers, and 50 kwh in the bigger, bulkier units, ABB, or the Soletec unit, like at the L.A Zoo. Your car has to have the SAE port to charge at this level... and plugging it in in the dark, at night, as I found out tonight, is unwieldy, a real PIA shaped plug, awkward to get it aligned and installed to charge, and the cord is HEAVY!

Every time you step up a level, you get a gain of 3 fold with a 3.6 kw charger from level 1 to level 2.

With the 7.2 kw and DC fast charger option (expensive), you get a gain of 6 fold from level 1 to level 2 and again a gain of 3 to 4 fold from level 2 to level 3 with a SAE fast charger plug and the small 24kw version, and the 50 kwh version takes you from around 6.2 to 6.6 kwh to 50 kwh, around 7 to 8 times faster than level 2. Time is money. Level 3 has limits, VW recommends you alternate it with Level 2 charges, at least every other time, if you read the owners manual. They suggest you use it "sparingly". My interpretation of "sparingingly" is that it should be used less than 5 to 10% of all your recharges. JMHO.

As an LA person who has been an EVer for almost 3 years, I can tell you that the SAE CCS fast charging system used on the eGolf, while not as prevalent as the CHAdeMO used on the Leaf, is available in greater numbers in the LA area now than CHAdeMO was 3 years ago.

The OP should note that the SE does NOT come with DCFC as standard equipment.

Not happy that the 2016 came with a slower charger. Correct me if i am wrong but wouldn't it take twice as long to charge with my car that has the 3.6 charger vs the 7.2 that came on the 2015?

It does not make a difference for my use as I charge at home and usually have more than enough time to recharge and start the next day. I used the level one for over a year on my Ford. It would be nice to charge fast if i need it but i don't think i would pay extra for it for my needs, meaning from the car manufacturer or the seller of the electricity.

Leo said:

Not happy that the 2016 came with a slower charger. Correct me if i am wrong but wouldn't it take twice as long to charge with my car that has the 3.6 charger vs the 7.2 that came on the 2015?

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If you are at a public station, they are typically 208 Volts and 30 Amps. The SE can only draw 16 amps. So, it's a little bit more than half the charging speed (16/30) and a little bit less than double the time to charge the same amount.

Leo said:

Not happy that the 2016 came with a slower charger. Correct me if i am wrong but wouldn't it take twice as long to charge with my car that has the 3.6 charger vs the 7.2 that came on the 2015?

It does not make a difference for my use as I charge at home and usually have more than enough time to recharge and start the next day. I used the level one for over a year on my Ford. It would be nice to charge fast if i need it but i don't think i would pay extra for it for my needs, meaning from the car manufacturer or the seller of the electricity.

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At a Level 2 charger, 208V and capable of 30 amps, when your charger only handles 15 amps, yes.

At a level 1 charger, the time to charge is the same, the EVSE unit at 120V and 1.3kw limits the charging speed, not the 3.6kw charger on board the car.

JoulesThief said:

Level 1 is charging with 100 + volts, usually 120V at 12 amps continuous... a normal 15 amp wall Outlet. Some wall plugs at 120V like near the washer and dryer are 20 amp rated outlets. In this case, charge rate and amps drawn is limited by the EVSE unit.

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Is 12 amps the only option? I have a 20a circuit right now that does solely the front porch lights and an outdoor outlet. I'm already planning to replace the lights with LEDs so it seems I could possibly pull 16 amps provided I have the correct receptacle (NEMA 20-R, etc).

I understand that even if possible I might be breaking electrical codes by doing this. I am not planning to, but am just curious.

RonDawg said:

The OP should note that the SE does NOT come with DCFC as standard equipment.

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Yep, very important and a key factor influencing the $6,000 price difference between the SE and SEL. VW doesn't do a very good job of putting this in writing; if you look at all their marketing material, DC fast charging isn't mentioned at all :shock:

Thank you all for all the very good information. I am starting to feel like I am getting an oversight.

Agreed with johnnylingo on VW not pointing this out at all.
I just specifically asked the VW dealer "so the blue striped and inside trimming, the leather seats and the steering wheel buttons are what make the price difference, there is no other technical difference to the car?" and he confirmed! :shock: I also asked why people were trying to get the 2015 SE model over the 2016 and he tole me it was some nostalgia over that being the first year it came out! Sigh, I guess, one should never trust the sales person, but definitely not buying my car from him either! :x

So about the 2015 SE, is does come standard with a 30A on board charger? Does is also come with DCFC capability?

skorpionfisch said:

Thank you all for all the very good information. I am starting to feel like I am getting an oversight.

Agreed with johnnylingo on VW not pointing this out at all.
I just specifically asked the VW dealer "so the blue striped and inside trimming, the leather seats and the steering wheel buttons are what make the price difference, there is no other technical difference to the car?" and he confirmed! :shock: I also asked why people were trying to get the 2015 SE model over the 2016 and he tole me it was some nostalgia over that being the first year it came out! Sigh, I guess, one should never trust the sales person, but definitely not buying my car from him either! :x

So about the 2015 SE, is does come standard with a 30A on board charger? Does is also come with DCFC capability?

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Do your own due diligence before buying. Get a 2015 brochure down at a VW dealership, as well as a 2016 brochure and find out for yourself. Then read the Maroni window sticker on the car you are considering buying. You get what you pay for, the cheapest 29k version of the e-Golf is the cheapest stripped version they've made so far, to get to that price point, so it's a bare bones EV. You will pay a premium for convenience, SAE Level 3 charge capability, and 7.2 kwh Level 2 charging capability. Can't make it any more clear than that. Run the numbers side by side, for specifications, do a comparison.

skorpionfisch said:

So about the 2015 SE, is does come standard with a 30A on board charger? Does is also come with DCFC capability?

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There's actually no such thing as a 2015 SE. The cheaper 2015 trim was the Limited Edition (LE) and can best be thought of as an SEL with no heat pump and three cosmetic downgrades : cloth seats, halogen headlights, and steel wheels.

I created a spreadsheet last month that you may find useful:

https://spaces.hightail.com/space/yZm8Z

very useful spreadsheet!!! Thank you!!!

johnnylingo said:

JoulesThief said:

Level 1 is charging with 100 + volts, usually 120V at 12 amps continuous..

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Is 12 amps the only option?

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Using the OEM EVSE, yes. A company called EVSE Upgrade, does sell a modified Nissan OEM EVSE which is capable of 120 volt/16 amp operation. But at $649 (and that's the discounted price) it costs more than most 240 volt EVSEs and is slower than all of them.

http://evseupgrade.com/?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=25

johnnylingo said:

JoulesThief said:

Level 1 is charging with 100 + volts, usually 120V at 12 amps continuous... a normal 15 amp wall Outlet. Some wall plugs at 120V like near the washer and dryer are 20 amp rated outlets. In this case, charge rate and amps drawn is limited by the EVSE unit.

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Is 12 amps the only option? I have a 20a circuit right now that does solely the front porch lights and an outdoor outlet. I'm already planning to replace the lights with LEDs so it seems I could possibly pull 16 amps provided I have the correct receptacle (NEMA 20-R, etc).

I understand that even if possible I might be breaking electrical codes by doing this. I am not planning to, but am just curious.

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It is really best to do EV charging on a dedicated circuit. I don't think an electrician (permitted work) would put a 5-20 outlet on a 20A circuit that had other lighting loads.

If you buy a different EVSE, you could charge at more than 12 amps on a 120V circuit. The one that is provided is fixed at 12 amps. I have a Jesla (Tesla Model S charge cord modified with J1772 connector) and Tesla makes an adapter for NEMA 5-20. That will allow 15 or 16 amp charging. I believe some of the modified Panasonic charge cords (EVSEupgrade.com) allow selectable charge currents. OpenEVSE or others like that will also allow you to adjust the pilot signal to the car.

We leased one of the first 2016 eGolfs to arrive in Maryland. Took delivery about 5 months ago. My wife loves it! She uses it to commute 26 miles each way to work, plus occasional errands after work that can add another 12-24 miles. So between 54-80 miles of max use daily. Plus weekend errands. The most typical day though is 54 miles.

When we got the vehicle we realized we didn't have the fast onboard charger (it wasn't available yet) and we were concerned about charging times like you are. So we researched 220v ESVEs, picked out one & had electricians give us quotes for upgrading our main panel, adding a sub panel and installing a plug in the garage (we chose the Clipper Creek HCS-40P so we could take it with us if we move). But we never acted on any of this because the 110v charger that came with the car has been doing fine! Originally the car showed a full charge at 88-95 miles of range but has been getting better with time. Now full capacity is around 105-110. This is true in both very cold (15 degrees F) very hot (82 degrees F) weather - we've actually had those extremes here in Maryland in the last 5 months! Keep in mind she tries not to use the AC or heater that much (seat heaters are enough) and she actively uses the regenerative braking to milk as much extra juice from the ride as possible. It's actually sort of a fun game for her to see how much range she can have remaining when she gets home. She leaves with 88-110, drives 26 miles (mostly uphill) and gets to work with around 48-56 miles left, BUT... Since the ride home is mostly downhill she can actually drive those same 26 miles and get home without losing much range - 26 miles only costs about 5-10 miles net. So she's getting home with about 40-50 miles still in the "tank."

She plugs in around 5pm and it's fully charged well before the time she's ready to leave for work at 7am. I estimate it's charging somewhere between 3-5 miles per hour. I did go into the settings on the car's menu and set the charging rate to maximum. Our garage is on a 110v/20amp circuit that sees use by the charger, a refrigerator, the lights and garage door openers. Plus occasional use of a charger for our eGo electric lawnmower. So far no issues with electrical.

I could see the possibility that we might need the 220v charger in the summer, what with more AC use and the constant heat impacting battery capacity. We will see.

If you can afford the high speed charging option I would do it since it will give piece of mind and add value when it comes time to sell. Tge lack of that feature is one of the reasons we decided to lease rather than buy.

corendurance said:

We leased one of the first 2016 eGolfs to arrive in Maryland. Took delivery about 5 months ago. My wife loves it! She uses it to commute 26 miles each way to work, plus occasional errands after work that can add another 12-24 miles. So between 54-80 miles of max use daily. Plus weekend errands. The most typical day though is 54 miles.

When we got the vehicle we realized we didn't have the fast onboard charger (it wasn't available yet) and we were concerned about charging times like you are. So we researched 220v ESVEs, picked out one & had electricians give us quotes for upgrading our main panel, adding a sub panel and installing a plug in the garage (we chose the Clipper Creek HCS-40P so we could take it with us if we move). But we never acted on any of this because the 110v charger that came with the car has been doing fine! Originally the car showed a full charge at 88-95 miles of range but has been getting better with time. Now full capacity is around 105-110. This is true in both very cold (15 degrees F) very hot (82 degrees F) weather - we've actually had those extremes here in Maryland in the last 5 months! Keep in mind she tries not to use the AC or heater that much (seat heaters are enough) and she actively uses the regenerative braking to milk as much extra juice from the ride as possible. It's actually sort of a fun game for her to see how much range she can have remaining when she gets home. She leaves with 88-110, drives 26 miles (mostly uphill) and gets to work with around 48-56 miles left, BUT... Since the ride home is mostly downhill she can actually drive those same 26 miles and get home without losing much range - 26 miles only costs about 5-10 miles net. So she's getting home with about 40-50 miles still in the "tank."

She plugs in around 5pm and it's fully charged well before the time she's ready to leave for work at 7am. I estimate it's charging somewhere between 3-5 miles per hour. I did go into the settings on the car's menu and set the charging rate to maximum. Our garage is on a 110v/20amp circuit that sees use by the charger, a refrigerator, the lights and garage door openers. Plus occasional use of a charger for our eGo electric lawnmower. So far no issues with electrical.

I could see the possibility that we might need the 220v charger in the summer, what with more AC use and the constant heat impacting battery capacity. We will see.

If you can afford the high speed charging option I would do it since it will give piece of mind and add value when it comes time to sell. Tge lack of that feature is one of the reasons we decided to lease rather than buy.

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FYI if you're able to make do on just 120 volt charging, having the faster on-board charger isn't going to make your car charge any faster at that voltage. If you're plugged into a 20 amp circuit, the most that circuit can safely deliver continuously is 16 amps (80% of the rated load). That's only 1.92 kW, a bit more than half the maximum charging rate of your eGolf ignoring typical charging losses. However the EVSE that comes with most plug-in cars can only supply 12 amps at 120 volts, as that is that maximum that can be safely delivered continuously from a more common 15 amp circuit.

You'll find that your range will increase during the summer. Winter decreases range for a variety of reasons, but in your car's case the resistive heater is a big draw on the battery. Unlike with an ICEV, you'll find the A/C to have far less an impact on range.

johnnylingo said:

RonDawg said:

The OP should note that the SE does NOT come with DCFC as standard equipment.

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Yep, very important and a key factor influencing the $6,000 price difference between the SE and SEL. VW doesn't do a very good job of putting this in writing; if you look at all their marketing material, DC fast charging isn't mentioned at all :shock:

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$6000 is a very steep price to pay for this feature, especially if LED headlights and "leatherette" seats don't appeal to you. Yes, it's supposedly possible to get an SE with the fast charger for only $1650 more. However, checking with every single dealer within 100 miles of the Washington DC metro area, nobody had one, and only offered that I could special order one and wait more than 6 months for it. I decided to keep my $6000 and if I need to take a longer drive (very seldom for me, maybe 1-2x a year?) I will rent a car and still come out way ahead. For somebody that needs the fast charger due to a longer commute or unpredictable driving needs, I guess you just have to pay up.

I've only used DCFC twice, but I find that the included 7.2 kW on board charging unit is far more useful than the 3.6 kW one of the base SE. If I just need a bit more charge to make it home, that can shave an hour or more off charging at a public charging station.