JoulesThief
Posts: 2576
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:01 pm

Re: Egolf Battery Warranty

f1geek wrote:1. I believe that degradation is not linear, but is more likely hyperbolic ( from the data I’ve seen for Tesla packs), so while the initial loss rate may be high, the loss rate should decrease as time passes.

2. The e-Golf pack has both a top and bottom buffer, so 100% SoC is not equivalent to 4.2 Volts per cell, and you can’t fully discharge the pack, thus providing some protection.

3. Based on the names of some variables I have observed in OBDEleven, I believe the BMS is programmed to reduce the top and bottom buffers so that the net capacity can increase (at the expense of longevity) and help the pack to remain above 70% at the 8 year or 100,000 mile warranty limits.

4. I believe VW did heavy testing on the pack and has data (as well as the potential strategy in point #3) to give the company confidence in providing said warranty without needing to replace a significant proportion of e-Golf packs.

5. If the warranty is triggered, VW promises to NOT replace with a new pack, but with a pack at 70% net capacity.

6. Based on points 1 through 6, I believe the prudent owner will not deliberately abuse the pack as the chance of replacement with a new pack is low. Instead, accept that the pack will lose capacity, but probably no more more than 20 to 25% at the warranty mileage and time stipulations.
With everything I have read from VW, and my lone one size sample personal observations, everything F1 has posted has matched my experiences in almost 4 years of ownership. We haven't gotten to the point of 7 or 8 years in service e-Golfs yet, but I highly doubt VW will cover very many of these batteries under warranty, and have to replace with a 70% capacity or slightly better battery. They are quite conservative, so my guess is the buffer in the battery pack is enough for them to get them through warranty coverage almost all of the time, save a few battery packs that have some cell packs just die, due to heat or old age, or abuse.

Volkswagen is notorious for their dealerships denying warranty coverage for anything, because VW pays dealership shops so poorly on warranty work. So the dealership has every single incentive to deny warranty coverage, and get the customer on the hook for repair and replacement at full dealership hourly rates for labor, and profit on parts to improve their profits and their bottom line, at the customers expense...

IMHO, you really need to know more about your e-Golf and it's electrics than the service writer or technicians, before you go in requesting repairs. The service writers have a very annoying habit of forgetting to log your complaints on the forms, so you have to verify everything they write up, and make changes or amendments BEFORE you sign your name on the line, make sure everything you talked about is there, and written up. I go in with a written list of my own, before I take any of my VW's in for service. I then compare my list to their write up. They are pretty sneaky about what they DON"T write up that you've made a complaint about. Or they say they can't duplicate the problem or they've never heard of it happening before.

I haven't had very many warranty issues with VW's yet, but the few times I have, it's been a royal PIA dealing with any VW dealership and having to go through VW Customer Care to get the problem resolved under warranty.
Last edited by JoulesThief on Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
2015 e-Golf SEL
2015 Passat TDI SEL
2014 Touareg TDI LUX

Full spectrum VW owner, life is too short to wait to drive for a recharge.
msvphoto
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:30 pm

Re: Egolf Battery Warranty

JoulesThief wrote:
f1geek wrote:1. I believe that degradation is not linear, but is more likely hyperbolic ( from the data I’ve seen for Tesla packs), so while the initial loss rate may be high, the loss rate should decrease as time passes.

2. The e-Golf pack has both a top and bottom buffer, so 100% SoC is not equivalent to 4.2 Volts per cell, and you can’t fully discharge the pack, thus providing some protection.

3. Based on the names of some variables I have observed in OBDEleven, I believe the BMS is programmed to reduce the top and bottom buffers so that the net capacity can increase (at the expense of longevity) and help the pack to remain above 70% at the 8 year or 100,000 mile warranty limits.

4. I believe VW did heavy testing on the pack and has data (as well as the potential strategy in point #3) to give the company confidence in providing said warranty without needing to replace a significant proportion of e-Golf packs.

5. If the warranty is triggered, VW promises to NOT replace with a new pack, but with a pack at 70% net capacity.

6. Based on points 1 through 6, I believe the prudent owner will not deliberately abuse the pack as the chance of replacement with a new pack is low. Instead, accept that the pack will lose capacity, but probably no more more than 20 to 25% at the warranty mileage and time stipulations.
With everything I have read from VW, and my lone one size sample personal observations, everything F1 has posted has matched my experiences in almost 4 years of ownership. We haven't gotten to the point of 7 or 8 years in service e-Golfs yet, but I highly doubt VW will cover very many of these batteries under warranty, and have to replace with a 70% capacity or slightly better battery. They are quite conservative, so my guess is the buffer in the battery pack is enough for them to get them through warranty coverage almost all of the time, save a few battery packs that have some cell packs just die, due to heat or old age, or abuse.
I agree with your and F1's assessment of probably not many warranty replacements.

But again I ask, where would replacement battery packs from with only 70% or slightly higher capacity come from? It is not like VW has a stash of used parts laying around for eGolfs. I suppose there could be production QA rejects that are above 70% but below minimum for new car production. Kinda big and heavy to warehouse though. I wonder how many 2015 GTI or R 2.0T crate motors there are laying around waiting for warranty replacement? Probably not many and they sold a bunch more ICE Golfs than eGolfs.

Who knows, maybe those few (if any) 2015 and 2016 owners that do have a battery warranty claim wind up being told something like "gee, we're sorry, there are no replacement packs for your car but we have some 35.8kWh packs so you get an upgrade." I have a colleague who owns a Ford Focus electric that did have battery failure under warranty. Ford did just that. They didn't have the original packs any longer so he got the current higher capacity version under warranty because that was all Ford had available for replacement.
2015 e-Golf SEL my wife's daily, shared on weekends
2000 BMW 540iT my daily and our range extender
1986 Audi 4000 quattro "the cockroach" my alternate daily
1983 Audi Ur Quattro "the garage queen" looks pretty and appreciates daily
JoulesThief
Posts: 2576
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:01 pm

Re: Egolf Battery Warranty

msvphoto wrote:
JoulesThief wrote:
f1geek wrote:1. I believe that degradation is not linear, but is more likely hyperbolic ( from the data I’ve seen for Tesla packs), so while the initial loss rate may be high, the loss rate should decrease as time passes.

2. The e-Golf pack has both a top and bottom buffer, so 100% SoC is not equivalent to 4.2 Volts per cell, and you can’t fully discharge the pack, thus providing some protection.

3. Based on the names of some variables I have observed in OBDEleven, I believe the BMS is programmed to reduce the top and bottom buffers so that the net capacity can increase (at the expense of longevity) and help the pack to remain above 70% at the 8 year or 100,000 mile warranty limits.

4. I believe VW did heavy testing on the pack and has data (as well as the potential strategy in point #3) to give the company confidence in providing said warranty without needing to replace a significant proportion of e-Golf packs.

5. If the warranty is triggered, VW promises to NOT replace with a new pack, but with a pack at 70% net capacity.

6. Based on points 1 through 6, I believe the prudent owner will not deliberately abuse the pack as the chance of replacement with a new pack is low. Instead, accept that the pack will lose capacity, but probably no more more than 20 to 25% at the warranty mileage and time stipulations.
With everything I have read from VW, and my lone one size sample personal observations, everything F1 has posted has matched my experiences in almost 4 years of ownership. We haven't gotten to the point of 7 or 8 years in service e-Golfs yet, but I highly doubt VW will cover very many of these batteries under warranty, and have to replace with a 70% capacity or slightly better battery. They are quite conservative, so my guess is the buffer in the battery pack is enough for them to get them through warranty coverage almost all of the time, save a few battery packs that have some cell packs just die, due to heat or old age, or abuse.
I agree with your and F1's assessment of probably not many warranty replacements.

But again I ask, where would replacement battery packs from with only 70% or slightly higher capacity come from? It is not like VW has a stash of used parts laying around for eGolfs. I suppose there could be production QA rejects that are above 70% but below minimum for new car production. Kinda big and heavy to warehouse though. I wonder how many 2015 GTI or R 2.0T crate motors there are laying around waiting for warranty replacement? Probably not many and they sold a bunch more ICE Golfs than eGolfs.

Who knows, maybe those few (if any) 2015 and 2016 owners that do have a battery warranty claim wind up being told something like "gee, we're sorry, there are no replacement packs for your car but we have some 35.8kWh packs so you get an upgrade." I have a colleague who owns a Ford Focus electric that did have battery failure under warranty. Ford did just that. They didn't have the original packs any longer so he got the current higher capacity version under warranty because that was all Ford had available for replacement.

The replacement batteries will be the big mystery, as to where they source them out.

It's an interesting thought, and would be a nice windfall, for sure. But it's pure speculation, the bigger battery pack... The 24.2k pack I have is just fine. My rate of loss has decreased significantly, so the slope F1 refers to, so far, has matched my experience exactly. 129 miles shown when new, my last recharge at 7.2 kWh and 240v /30 amps showed 115 miles on the GOM. But it's been really hot lately, high 90's to 103 yesterday, so that may be affecting the battery chemistry and range being increased, temporarily. I'll know more when November comes around, how much I lost over the summer. And my miles per kWh has crept up to 6.5, 6.8 and 7.1 miles per kWh as of late. I usually get 6.1 to 6.3 miles per kWh, so that has a huge effect on the range the GOM indicates.

At the rate I am going, I'll be lucky to log 50 to 55k miles in 8 years on the 2015 SEL. Knock on wood, it's been an absolutely fantastic urban vehicle for me, here in Southern CA, in conjunction with the TDI's for longer trips anytime I need to get out of Los Angeles and make some time and miles on a freeway, highway, or Interstate on longer trips.
2015 e-Golf SEL
2015 Passat TDI SEL
2014 Touareg TDI LUX

Full spectrum VW owner, life is too short to wait to drive for a recharge.
tbier
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:53 pm

Re: Egolf Battery Warranty

I would suspect that if a battery fell below 70% they might only replace as many cells as necessary to get it above 70%. But with the low (zero? has anyone reported getting one replaced) number of batteries expected to be replaced it might not be worth refurbishing batteries.
miimura
Posts: 1322
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:13 pm
Location: Los Altos, CA

Re: Egolf Battery Warranty

If the battery is uniformly degraded due to use in high ambient temperatures for its whole life, they would likely get one from a salvage or similar. If there are some cells that are worse than others, they will just replace those and get the pack back to a point that it should remain above the warranty threshold for the remainder of the warranty. However, they have to be careful not to put cells that are too good in that pack because it won't stay balanced. They are actually better off putting in used cells.
2015 e-Golf LE (returned) | 2018 Tesla Model 3 LR | 2012 RAV4 EV Shoreline w/JdeMO | Leviton EVB40 & Jesla Home Charging | 4.32kW Motech/Enphase PV + 2x Powerwall 2 AC
msvphoto
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:30 pm

Re: Egolf Battery Warranty

miimura wrote:If the battery is uniformly degraded due to use in high ambient temperatures for its whole life, they would likely get one from a salvage or similar. If there are some cells that are worse than others, they will just replace those and get the pack back to a point that it should remain above the warranty threshold for the remainder of the warranty. However, they have to be careful not to put cells that are too good in that pack because it won't stay balanced. They are actually better off putting in used cells.
Remains to be seen. Probably a lot of $150/hr labor to open up a pack and swap individual cells out. Not likely something a dealership tech would be doing. I only have one data point of someone I personally know with an EV that had battery replacement which was the Focus mentioned in my previous post in this thread.

I don't see VWofA stocking used parts or buying from Copart for warranty replacements, but who knows?
2015 e-Golf SEL my wife's daily, shared on weekends
2000 BMW 540iT my daily and our range extender
1986 Audi 4000 quattro "the cockroach" my alternate daily
1983 Audi Ur Quattro "the garage queen" looks pretty and appreciates daily
rcworship
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue May 07, 2019 8:00 am
Location: Southern California

Re: Egolf Battery Warranty

Hey all, a little bump here. I haven’t done a search, so if this has been answered, I apologize.

We’re past 80,000 miles and have some battery concerns. The other night I purposely drained the battery to depletion of service. I was up hill and coasted home. Brilliant! I charged it straight through overnight and got 17.24 kWh. That’s right at 70%, but I’m not sure if the 70% number is the 24.2, or another value. Anybody know how that is figured?
2016 VW eGolf SE
2018 VW Atlas SE w/ Tech
2003 VW Passat GLS wagon 1.8T
2002 VW Passat GLX 2.6 4Motion
2000 VW Golf GLS 2.0 manual
f1geek
Posts: 1001
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:18 pm
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Egolf Battery Warranty

70% of usable capacity. 24.2 kWh is gross, 89% is usable when new, or 21.5 kWh. 15.1 kWh is 70% warranty trigger. Also, if you measured 17.24 kWh from the charge station, that is an inflated value due to charging losses and the actual usable capacityy is less. Best to use driving data to calculate usable capacity.
2017 e-Golf LE, Multi Coat White with Black Vegan Leather interior, purchased in early 2018
2015 e-Golf SEL leased for three years, returned in early 2018
jiuer7845
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:31 pm

Re: Egolf Battery Warranty

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