Why EV?

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peralex1

***
Joined
May 21, 2015
Messages
13
Why would you purchase EV right now? Gas is fairly cheap. Range on regular EV's is very small - around 80 miles. Just trying to get some pluses and minuses for justification of purchase (convincing wife) :D. On serious note - is it all about saving environment, saving money or standing out of crowd (being different)? Any resale ideas - what would they cost say 2-3 years from now?
 
EV purchase doesn't make much sense imo. Lease is the way to go.

It does save money depending on which car. For a spark EV you can lease for 3 years/30Kmiles, $140/mo after tax and $0 out of pocket. 36x140 is $5040 and you get a $2500 check from state so the lease itself is approx $2.5k or $70/mo. I currently spend $300/mo on fuel on my ICE alone which I expect will go down significantly after I get an EV but now I'll probably spend $50/mo to $100/mo extra on electricity so it will offset a bit. Some cars have other incentives, Nissan Leaf has 2 free years of charging on evgo freedom network.

For me, it's more a hobby and I told my wife that. She wasn't jumping for joy about it but she understood. I did let her have a big say in which car and the color and stuff. No small or ugly EVs she said. Lol, that's pretty much all of them not named Tesla except for the eGolf and ford focus electric.

Anyway, we ended up deciding on leasing the eGolf.
 
bevs, especially the egolf, are much more fun to drive and totally quiet compared to an ice. The 7500 tax credit, assuming you are paying at least that much in taxes, brings the egolf SEL down to 26-27K, and less for some states. For this you you get a fully loaded car that to my mind is the equivalent of a 43K bmw 328i.

There's the added advantage of gas savings, and virtually no yearly maintenance as with an ice, eg hoses, radiator, exhaust, brake pads, plugs, oil etc. Therefore, less stress to track and schedule service, less worry about breakdowns while driving, and less guilt about destroying the environment.

If your driving profile is mostly 100 miles or less, you have a garage to charge, and an ice for the occasional long trips, the egolf is a no brainer.

Ron
 
EVs aren't for everyone. If you need to drive far at times and you don't have an ICE in your household it may be a problem. If you don't have a way of charging your EV at home then it's a problem. Buying an EV is kind of like buying a mobile phone. Next years version is guaranteed to be better. However, at the same time, there are significant savings to be had by not paying for gas. In my case, I set up a spread sheet to calculate the actual cost of owning an EV. The cost of the Spark would have SAVED me money. The cost would have been negative because of the low monthly lease cost after rebates would have been more than offset by savings in gasoline. However, that car just felt too basic and too much of a compromise with cheap looking materials and so on.

The eGolf was not a compromise, but ends up costing me according to my calculations about $5500 over three years. That is calculated as follows: lease cost + electricity - california rebate - cost of gas that i would have used. Only later on did I find out that the insurance is about 200/yr more for the eGolf than my ICE, so the true cost will be closer to 6k over 3 years, which is still not bad at all for a very nice car.

And in 3 years the EV landscape is going to be quite different: longer range for sure, lower price (probably), but the government and state rebates are also likely to be lowered or go away as EVs become more mainstream. So we'll see what it looks like then...
 
I agree that 2-3 years from now ranges going to be much better and rebates will be more than likely gone all together. What is tempting me right now - rebates ( federal $7500 and state of CT $3000) and current dealer incentive (sales guys are very tight lipped about it. So from $36k to about $23-25k - really hard to fight. As for driving quality - e-golf is a rocket. Lease is probably make much more sense - I agree. I will consider both options. Can you guys explain how you get state rebate from lease? Few sales guys around me telling me that I will not be eligeble. I am probably fine with that but all those rebates should reduce cap cost and finally reflect in lease price.
 
I think it's more like 3-4 years on 200 miles, especially for egolf. Bolt or Tesla Model 3 if they do come out are going to get some of the extra mileage in some unknown but significant portion from simply a bigger battery, which means a heavier car. So there's a trade off which makes a 100 mile car with CCS still a viable solution if you have the driving profile, and particularly if you also have an ice. I wouldn't be surprised to see egolf, leaf and i3 continuing to offer a 100 mile car as well as a 200 mile car

As regards leasing, I bought mine. The guys writing the lease terms are no dummies, and while it's tempting to think you're sticking them with an loss car at the end of the lease, I wouldn't count on it. Also, there's the possibility of hyperinflation on the horizon with all the QE and debt sloshing around the world. Inflation is Venezuela for example is 200%. It might be a good time to own real things, especially something as nice as the egolf

Ron
 
You are right - lease is not a freebie either. I think that e-golf even 4-5 years from now will still be a very usable car, that is why I am thinking about outright purchase - with ICE cars after say 100k miles you consider very high reliability issue as well as rising cost of maintenance (timing belt, water pump) and the price of that vehicle going down so spending $1000 on $5000 car seems to be unpalatable. e-golf has very little maintenance unlike ICE. Warranty on the battery for 8 years (or 100k miles) makes it like iPhone 4 - still works but is not worth much , so you just keep it around for no apparent reason. Something like that. Guys, thanks for great points for my justification project! :D
 
State rebate rules probably differ quite a bit by state. In California for instance you need to have the car a minimum 30 months to be eligible for the rebate. You actually get the rebate shortly after you buy the car, but you'll have to pay it back if you don't keep your car for those 30 months. That's why all EV leases here go for 36 months minimum. From what I saw on the CT site it seems like you should be able to lease your car as well, but check it out yourself: http://www.ct.gov/deep/cwp/view.asp?a=2684&q=561422&deepNav_GID=2183.
 
LEASE vs. BUY-USED (my story)

I am on my second EV (Nissan LEAF) and I can say, all things considered, it's the best car I have ever owned. I test drove the e-Golf the other day and I think the e-Golf is significantly better than the LEAF.

Others on this forum will explain to you why EVs are great, so I will give you my two cents about Lease vs. Buy-used.

I would not buy an EV new because they are expensive and the battery may go bad on you in 4 to 7 years. Plus, couple years from now (like 18 months), the LEAF & e-Golf will have a range of 125 miles or better. So, if you want a new EV today, you should definitely lease.

But there is an alternative ...

If you don't mind getting an used EV then buying makes a lot of sense.

I leased my first LEAF new and it was great for three years. I recently bought an used LEAF and the numbers make sense:

For $13,000 (before tax and fees) I got a 2013 Nissan LEAF S w/QC&6.6k with 8,000 miles and only 18 months old in like-new condition. It was Nissan pre-owned certified with excellent warranties. I had it for two months now with zero issues, just like my previous LEAF, zero issues.

So, before you lease a new EV (LEAF or e-Golf) you may want to consider an used 2013 Nissan LEAF for around $12-14,000. (Don't get 2011 or 2012 because they only had 3.3k onboard charger. You want 6.6k for sure, it is twice as fast at 220v)

More and more 2013 LEAFs are rolling off lease this year so you should be able to find a great deal.

Since my purchase, I have seen the same car sell for around $12,000. So, for around $11-14,000 you can get a very nice 2013 LEAF.
 
My wife and I had a long, mostly cheerful ;), discussion about to EV or not to EV. She was pro, I was con. In the end, all she had to do was get me to the dealership to test drive the eGolf and I was hooked. I had been behind the idea of plug-in for a few reasons (a big one is that we have solar and produce more elec than we use, so our utility pockets our 'net' gain). However, I was really against having a short-ranged golf cart. Boy, this is not that at all. It's just a great car that happens to be electric.

As for the price of gas...six months ago chatter was that we were no where close to the bottom for oil/gas prices. I took that queue to buy oil etfs. I just sold those for a nice profit that I used to for the down-payment on the eGolf Lease. After I get my State rebate back for the lease ($3K), I'll start buying calls on oil (USO) with the expectation that today's prices will seem incredibly low in short time. In my humble opinion, we saw the bottom of oil for a long time to come this winter. Again, this is my opinion, but we might have seen a once a quarter-century, if not once-in-a-century, phenom with recent oil/gas prices. IF gas prices are a reason to purchase a type/model of car, well, it's also usually one of the first reasons to sell that type of car and would influence (negatively) those prices (think Expeditions/Suburbans/Hummers circa 2009). Relatedly, the price of electric cars is at their best right now for those reasons (and the deals to be had, even for Leases, as we are seeing in CA) when the oil/gas market 'seems' in favor of the ICEs.

Cheers,
Tim
 
I wouldn't buy an EV, not for a few years anyway, but a lease is a good deal. Mine turned out to be much less to drive for three years than keeping my ICE Golf as it was out of the included service period and the DSG was expensive to service. Even assuming gas prices came down some and electricity went up, I'm close to driving for free for three years. If we get solar panels, we'll probably be able to run the car (and the house AC) for free.
I wouldn't have a pure EV as my only car yet, but if you've got a second car that has (virtually) unlimited range, it's a good deal.

I particularly didn't want to stand out from the crowed - that's why I like the e-Golf compared to something like the Leaf. The Tesla is fairly understated, but too expensive for me.

cove3 said:
Also, there's the possibility of hyperinflation on the horizon with all the QE and debt sloshing around the world. Inflation is Venezuela for example is 200%. It might be a good time to own real things, especially something as nice as the egolf
Ron, there's nothing wrong with owning nice things (this is the first time I've leased a car, so normally I buy) but I don't see it as a protection against hyperinflation. The USA is not Venezuela. There is almost no inflation here - some months there's deflation. http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/us-inflation-in-april-rises-annual-inflation-rate-slides/10001717/
I don't we need to worry about hoarding physical possessions for a while yet.
 
<<<There is almost no inflation here>>

In the fullness of time. There's little inflation because the tsunami of money being created all goes to the 1% who don't buy things in the CPI as they already have all the refrigerators, clothing and food they need. There's plenty of inflation in the things they do buy......Stocks, Picasso paintings, Ferraris, houses in the Hamptons etc.

Inflation is like a volcano or earthquake or bankruptcy......pressures build up over a long time, but then explode all at once. As we continue to abuse and finally lose our reserve currency status in the world, it will happen, although it's difficult to know when. Could be 1 year, 2 years, but probably not 5 years.

Ron
 
Lease vs. Buy

1. The effective interest rate you're paying on a e-Golf lease is about 0.2%.
2. The lease gives you the full benefit of the Federal Tax Credit regardless of your tax situation.
3. You have the option of purchasing the car at the end of the lease for a predetermined amount, regardless of what happens to the economy in the meantime. If the market for used short range EVs is very weak at the end of the lease, you don't take the hit on the resale value, you just give it back.
4. If you are a high mileage driver and the EV works for you, go for the purchase. You will be saving so much on gas that it almost won't matter that much what the resale value is after about 5 years.
 
I was hooked on e-golf when I took it for a test ride from local dealership. Wife drives SUV, but even she admitted that car drives excellent. As for Leaf - I am so hooked on VW, that LEAF is just not going to happen for me. Not like it is bad car or anything like that, just does not have the looks. Very interesting point on prices after lease - that is probably what expects e-golfs - lots of them in 2018.
 
peralex1 said:
I was hooked on e-golf when I took it for a test ride from local dealership. Wife drives SUV, but even she admitted that car drives excellent. As for Leaf - I am so hooked on VW, that LEAF is just not going to happen for me. Not like it is bad car or anything like that, just does not have the looks. Very interesting point on prices after lease - that is probably what expects e-golfs - lots of them in 2018.
But ... by 2018 you will no longer want the 2015 e-Golf because by then low end EVs will have range of 125+ miles, maybe even 150 miles. You will lease those when they come out.

Today, an 2013 used LEAF is a fantastic deal (the one I describe above). You can find them in like-new conditions with low mileage, Nissan Certified Pre-Owned, for $13,000 or so. Drive it for 2 or 3 years and then sell it and lease the 125 mile range e-Golf or LEAF when they arrive (2016/2017)

2015 is VW e-Golf's first year in America so it does have couple minor issues, but I absolutely love the car. I can't wait for the 125 mile range low end EVs to hit the market. I am in my mid 50s and I will likely never buy a gasoline car again. It's a great feeling.

In the SF bay area the number of LEAFs on the road is up dramatically in the past 12 months. I believe the number of LEAFs (and e-Golfs) will quadruple instantly when the 125+ mile range model hit the market.
 
I looked at those used LEAFs. Around 13k for not a bad vehicle. I think it make a lot of sense if you drive a lot. Otherwise with a current deal for lease at $299 a month plus 2400 down is hard to compare to a used car. What really surprised me was residual value of these cars - it seems that they do not hold their value as good as ICE cars. Drop from around 30k to 13 in 2 years? I am not buying. May be leasing with all the government incentives.
 
peralex1 said:
I looked at those used LEAFs. Around 13k for not a bad vehicle. I think it make a lot of sense if you drive a lot. Otherwise with a current deal for lease at $299 a month plus 2400 down is hard to compare to a used car. What really surprised me was residual value of these cars - it seems that they do not hold their value as good as ICE cars. Drop from around 30k to 13 in 2 years? I am not buying. May be leasing with all the government incentives.
There is a simple and straight forward reason for the quick drop in value after just two years.

Keep in mind the equivalent ICE LEAF is the $14,000 Versa, Nissan's low-end car:

http://www.nissanusa.com/buildyournissan/modelLine/build/2015/VER?next=see_all_vehicles.grid.build.image

If the LEAF was a 4 cylinder ICE car its base price new would be $14,000.

All the extra cost is because of the battery.

These EVs drop in value super quick because everyone is afraid the battery will be pretty much useless after 5 to 7 years. My first LEAF lost one bar (out of 12) after 2.5 years. It would not surprise me if it lost one bar every 18 months going forward. (Assuming the range of the LEAF is 78 miles, each bar is good for approximately 6.5 miles of range)

Also keep in mind most people leased the LEAF so we now see a huge volume of LEAFs rolling off lease from 2/3 years ago, flooding the market.

I suspect I will be able to sell the used LEAF I bought (described above), two years from now for about $8,000 to $9,000? Also, two to four years from now there might be after-market batteries available at a reasonable price. I don't know for sure, but I think things will work out because the used LEAF is already so cheap.
 
First of all, the eGolf lease is 3 years, not 2 as in the discussion above mentions. Second, I believe that EVs have artificially high sticker prices because of the federal $7500 rebate. If the rebate were not in place, I think that the sticker would be lower.
 
peralex1 said:
... Drop from around $30k to 13 in 2 years? ...
It's more like $24k to 13k (adjusting for government incentives), but still pretty dramatic. The used LEAF I bought was only 18 months old in like-new condition.

We are a multi-driver multi-car family and we consistently put on 15,000 miles/year on the LEAF. Ever since we got electric cars, the usage of our ICE cars have dropped off dramatically -- like -97%. Because of this, I think our existing ICE cars will last forever due to much less wear and tear. In fact I feel I am wasting money on auto insurance keeping them around.

When our ICE cars finally die (a very long time from now) I will not replace them. I will rent from Zipcar when I need an ICE car. I hope I never have to buy another ICE car again.

Because of my experience with our LEAFs I think the world is going to change pretty dramatically once low-end EVs reach range of 130 to 150 miles -- that's probably only two to three years from now. Can't wait !
 
I was just offered SEL at $299 a month for 2 year lease with $0 down (my state rebate is $3000). So, Frank, they do offer 2 year leases as well. One of co-workers raised a concern about winter driving - how dramatically the range drops when you have temps of close to 0 F? Last winter we had sub zero temps, so low that my DEF fluid in Passat TDI froze. Granted it does not happen very often and it may not be a concern for short commutes, but it could make the trip impossible for beyond 84 miles or even less due to no charging station on the route.
 
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