How much will a 2,000 ft hill affect range?

[JoulesThief]

I also lease and I also take care of the leased vehicle. I don't abuse it but I also don't care what the long term usability of the car is going to be after 6 or 8 years. I don't think it's wise to buy an electric vehicle just yet because of those concerns. But there's nothing in my feelings or behavior that should lead anyone to think that I am going to abuse the vehicle that I'm leasing. That's not a fair or accurate assessment.

My experience, both in doing repairs on TDI's and as a general contractor doing repair work on leases, rentals in commercial and residential properties, does not confirm your statement as being true or accurate.

You may speak for yourself, but as the repair guy, who has seen it all, and reached the point where I refused to bid on rentals or leased property due to gross abuse, pretty much confirms that you may be the rare exception to the rule. The majority of rented and leased cars are grossly abused.

 

[bizzle]

I don't disagree; I was just pointing out that mfennell's post didn't exhibit that kind of thinking and you used it as an example of people leasee's abusing the vehicles they're leasing.

I suspect that mfennell and myself are likely exceptions in the larger population of leasees but we should also consider that those of us leasing an eGolf are currently a tiny segment of an overall niche product. People buying or leasing eGolfs may be self-selectively more biased toward more conservationist principles to begin with, hence our choice in an electrical vehicle. In that regard, it might not make sense to compare our behavior with the average car consumer.

 

[JoulesThief]

I don't disagree; I was just pointing out that mfennell's post didn't exhibit that kind of thinking and you used it as an example of people leasee's abusing the vehicles they're leasing.

I suspect that mfennell and myself are likely exceptions in the larger population of leasees but we should also consider that those of us leasing an eGolf are currently a tiny segment of an overall niche product. People buying or leasing eGolfs may be self-selectively more biased toward more conservationist principles to begin with, hence our choice in an electrical vehicle. In that regard, it might not make sense to compare our behavior with the average car consumer.

You are the generation of double negatives... easier to say "I agree," than "I don't disagree", which only adds confusion.

 

[johnnylingo]

The lease is a hedge against the unknown. I'm fairly certain there are a number of Leaf owners in the southwest who wished they had leased.

Exactly. Personally, I have high confidence the battery will hold up well especially considering the moderate climate here, but it gives me an escape route should that not hold true. VW has the option to buy at for something like $12,000 at the end of lease, and that's a very fair price I would likely take them up on should the situation be right for it.

On the flip side if I was looking at a 2015 I'd probably take a chance and buy considering the remarkable deals right now, but for a 2016 leasing means paying slightly more with a lot less risk.

 

[johnnylingo]

My experience, both in doing repairs on TDI's and as a general contractor doing repair work on leases, rentals in commercial and residential properties, does not confirm your statement as being true or accurate.

EVs require much less maintenance than typical cars. EVs don't have timing belts, alternators, ignition coils, spark plugs, oxygen sensors, emission regulation valves, fuel pumps, fuel filters, air sensors, air filters, radiator hoses, vacuum lines - all ticking time bombs that will need to be monitored and likely replaced in that 5-12 year range. Yes, there's the battery question on an EV, but that's basically it.

Also I would suspect TDIs would be popular with a younger crowd who perhaps drives them a little more aggressively than average and are perhaps not as focused on maintenance as they should be.

 

[JoulesThief]

My experience, both in doing repairs on TDI's and as a general contractor doing repair work on leases, rentals in commercial and residential properties, does not confirm your statement as being true or accurate.

EVs require much less maintenance than typical cars. EVs don't have timing belts, alternators, ignition coils, spark plugs, oxygen sensors, emission regulation valves, fuel pumps, fuel filters, air sensors, air filters, radiator hoses, vacuum lines - all ticking time bombs that will need to be monitored and likely replaced in that 5-12 year range. Yes, there's the battery question on an EV, but that's basically it.

Also I would suspect TDIs would be popular with a younger crowd who perhaps drives them a little more aggressively than average and are perhaps not as focused on maintenance as they should be.

I don't see many youngsters driving Passat or Touareg TDI's. Just saying....

As for my e-Golf, 2015 SEL, I am in to it for $15,200-15,300 before taxes, after all rebates. I'm not worried what it's worth in 3 years, if VW has to warranty the battery on it, then so be it... they are logging each and every charge, it will be quite rare for my battery to see a Level 3 charge... it's for about a 40 mile radius from home, maximum... any farther, and the TDI's get to go for a drive instead.

 

[bizzle]

My main concern isn't the charges but rather how it's going to hold up in the desert over the next three years.

 

[JoulesThief]

My main concern isn't the charges but rather how it's going to hold up in the desert over the next three years.

I'd make an effort to always park it over concrete, and not hot black top, radiating desert heat up towards the battery pack. And charge when it's coolest during the summer heat. VW Coachella Valley sells e-Golf, so there will be some exposed to the ravages of desert heat.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

It's pretty significant. Someone quoted a loss of 10 miles range per 1000 feet elevation.
When I went up Alpine yesterday I was down to 40 miles range within 20 minutes...and I'd only gone about 30 miles.

If you traveled 30 miles in 20 minutes, you were traveling an average of ~90MPH, so that would drop the range quite a bit, I think.

 

[JoulesThief]

It's pretty significant. Someone quoted a loss of 10 miles range per 1000 feet elevation.
When I went up Alpine yesterday I was down to 40 miles range within 20 minutes...and I'd only gone about 30 miles.

If you traveled 30 miles in 20 minutes, you were traveling an average of ~90MPH, so that would drop the range quite a bit, I think.

Now that's funny! 21 minutes, so he could peg the needle at 87 MPH. I'll attribute it to a rounding error. :shock:

 

[bizzle]

hahaha, no I just worded it wrong.

That segment of my trip was 30 miles from the point I had a full charge to the top of Alpine.

Instead, when I got to the bottom of Alpine my range was about 80 (I'd gone ten miles) but the 20 mile climb sapped me for 40 miles estimated range.
I was driving about 35 miles an hour. It took me about an hour, but I meant that the range dropped significantly within those last 20 minutes.

 

[johnnylingo]

Thanks to my recent discovery of Turo, I was able to try this last night for a mere $10 ($30 rental - 1st time user credit)

- Started with full charge in Pleasanton. After driving a couple miles around town, left with 85 miles with A/C off
- Took i-680 to San Jose, then switched to 17, driving in normal mode, lights on, A/C off, radio on, speeds 65-70 mph
- At 17's Hamilton exit, estimated range remaining was 41 miles. I'd covered 35 miles averaging 3.9 m/kWh, essentially using almost half the battery capacity.

At this point I'm 27 miles from Santa Cruz and approaching the mountains, so switched to Eco mode

- As I started the climb near Lexington reservoir, efficiency average started to drop dramatically. I'm still in Eco with speeds 50-55 mph. Halfway up the hill I'd already burned 20 miles of estimated range despite having only traveled 10 :?
- A couple more miles up the road near Redwood Estates/Holy City, the warning flash came on for 16 miles remaining
- At the summit, estimated range was now down to 11 miles. Santa Cruz was 13 miles away :shock:
- But now the saving grace - regeneration! During the 8-mile descent, I was able to use D2 for most and even D3 while behind a truck, yet kept speed above 50 mph
- Coming in to Scotts Valley, I'd already made it back to 17 miles estimated range
- Increased speed to 65-70 mph to keep up with traffic. To my surprise, I continued to gradually gain estimated range on the downhill sections, even at highway speeds
- As I rolled on to Ocean Avenue in Santa Cruz, estimated range was at 20 miles.


Final trip average was 4.0 m/kWh compared to 3.9 m/kWh on I-680 section driving. Granted these aren't quite apples to apples comparison because my speed on the highway was 10-15 mph faster, but the point is I really didn't seem lose much range going over Patchen Pass. Really wish the e-Golf would provide kWh remaining, because I now fully understand the term "Lie-o-meter". I expected some wonkiness, but to go by it alone proved to be nerve-wracking :|

Now today I'll see what numbers I see going from Santa Cruz to Los Gatos, and should be able to try Eco+ mode after I clear Scott's Valley.

 

[2doors]

Glad you made it your destination.

I don't think of it as a "Lie-o-Meter" or "guess-o-meter" really. If you keep doing what you're doing (in your case going up hill), this is how far you can still go. Once you started going back down, yes, you gained range through re-gen, but you were also changed your driving style to one that was less taxing on the battery.

I admit though it is frustrating to see 114 miles or something estimated range right off the charger and then have it drop to 110, then 100, etc. within a couple of miles. My wife has ours today. Her commute is twice that of mine. She took it yesterday with a full charge. I think this will be the first time she's driven it on back to back days without charging in between. I'll have to see what it's got left when she gets home.

 

[JoulesThief]

Thanks to my recent discovery of Turo, I was able to try this last night for a mere $10 ($30 rental - 1st time user credit)

- Started with full charge in Pleasanton. After driving a couple miles around town, left with 85 miles with A/C off
- Took i-680 to San Jose, then switched to 17, driving in normal mode, lights on, A/C off, radio on, speeds 65-70 mph
- At 17's Hamilton exit, estimated range remaining was 41 miles. I'd covered 35 miles averaging 3.9 m/kWh, essentially using almost half the battery capacity.

At this point I'm 27 miles from Santa Cruz and approaching the mountains, so switched to Eco mode

- As I started the climb near Lexington reservoir, efficiency average started to drop dramatically. I'm still in Eco with speeds 50-55 mph. Halfway up the hill I'd already burned 20 miles of estimated range despite having only traveled 10 :?
- A couple more miles up the road near Redwood Estates/Holy City, the warning flash came on for 16 miles remaining
- At the summit, estimated range was now down to 11 miles. Santa Cruz was 13 miles away :shock:
- But now the saving grace - regeneration! During the 8-mile descent, I was able to use D2 for most and even D3 while behind a truck, yet kept speed above 50 mph
- Coming in to Scotts Valley, I'd already made it back to 17 miles estimated range
- Increased speed to 65-70 mph to keep up with traffic. To my surprise, I continued to gradually gain estimated range on the downhill sections, even at highway speeds
- As I rolled on to Ocean Avenue in Santa Cruz, estimated range was at 20 miles.


Final trip average was 4.0 m/kWh compared to 3.9 m/kWh on I-680 section driving. Granted these aren't quite apples to apples comparison because my speed on the highway was 10-15 mph faster, but the point is I really didn't seem lose much range going over Patchen Pass. Really wish the e-Golf would provide kWh remaining, because I now fully understand the term "Lie-o-meter". I expected some wonkiness, but to go by it alone proved to be nerve-wracking :|

Now today I'll see what numbers I see going from Santa Cruz to Los Gatos, and should be able to try Eco+ mode after I clear Scott's Valley.

If you want more cushion... slow down on the freeway... a lot, to 55 or 60 mph. You'll be pleasantly surprised how many more miles per kwh you get by doing so, and additional buffer range. A good rule of thumb on any German brand car is that when you look at the speedometer, you probably should NOT be doing much driving with the needle much farther right of the "straight up" or 12 0'clock position. The Germans index all their gauges so that normal or best operating procedures on analogue gauges yield a gauge operating in a normal or "straight up" configuration. By doing so, just glancing at the gauges will give you an instant heads up that something might not be correct, if the needle is going to the right. In other words, slow down if the speedo is too far to the right. It's a sign you are pushing things too hard.

 

[johnnylingo]

If you want more cushion... slow down on the freeway... a lot, to 55 or 60 mph.

Easier said than done :lol: Might work on the interstates here when there's light congestion, but Highway 17 is a sophie's choice between going in the left lane with the drag racers or right lane and dealing with merging traffic. There seldom is middle ground.

Driving from Santa Cruz to Los Gatos today I did take it slow, using eco+ mode starting in Scott's Valley but found my experience wasn't all that different from last night. I averaged 4.1 m/kWh, using an estimated 22 miles range while driving an actual 21. Don't know if I "lost" that mile doing 65 between Santa Cruz and Scott's Valley or going over the hill, but either way it was not the catastrophic loss of range I'd feared.

The only concern I have now is if I hit Los Gatos with say 30 miles remaining and had under 10 miles at the summit, would the power conservation kick in? I don't know if it's based on estimated range or actual kWh remaining.

 

[miimura]

The only concern I have now is if I hit Los Gatos with say 30 miles remaining and had under 10 miles at the summit, would the power conservation kick in? I don't know if it's based on estimated range or actual kWh remaining.

The forced Eco modes should be based on actual battery level, not range estimates.

 

[JoulesThief]

The only concern I have now is if I hit Los Gatos with say 30 miles remaining and had under 10 miles at the summit, would the power conservation kick in? I don't know if it's based on estimated range or actual kWh remaining.

When I get below about 1/4 tank of juice in the batteries, the eco mode kicks in. YMMV, but that tends to be what I've observed, real world.

 

[2doors]

A good rule of thumb on any German brand car is that when you look at the speedometer, you probably should NOT be doing much driving with the needle much farther right of the "straight up" or 12 0'clock position. The Germans index all their gauges so that normal or best operating procedures on analogue gauges yield a gauge operating in a normal or "straight up" configuration. By doing so, just glancing at the gauges will give you an instant heads up that something might not be correct, if the needle is going to the right. In other words, slow down if the speedo is too far to the right. It's a sign you are pushing things too hard.

Good to know. Straight up in my GTI is 80mph.

 

[JoulesThief]

A good rule of thumb on any German brand car is that when you look at the speedometer, you probably should NOT be doing much driving with the needle much farther right of the "straight up" or 12 0'clock position. The Germans index all their gauges so that normal or best operating procedures on analogue gauges yield a gauge operating in a normal or "straight up" configuration. By doing so, just glancing at the gauges will give you an instant heads up that something might not be correct, if the needle is going to the right. In other words, slow down if the speedo is too far to the right. It's a sign you are pushing things too hard.

Good to know. Straight up in my GTI is 80mph.

Too bad going over the speed limit makes you an outlaw.