Availability of 2017 e-Golf in NorthernCalifornia, discounts

[rihallix]

I am anticipating a 98 mile roundtrip commute from San Rafael to Redwood City - the 2016 e-Golf doesn't have the range (unless I can charge it up at the office which isn't a certainty), but it sounds like the 2017 may.

(1) Does anyone have any update when the 2017 e-Golf may be available?

(2) How close do existing Golf's come to the actual stated range?

(3) What kind of discounts have people obtained below MSRP on e-Golfs in northern California?

(4) How much have people paid to have 240V charging stations installed in their garages?

Thanks in advance for answers to my four questions.

 

[JoulesThief]

I am anticipating a 98 mile roundtrip commute from San Rafael to Redwood City - the 2016 e-Golf doesn't have the range (unless I can charge it up at the office which isn't a certainty), but it sounds like the 2017 may.

(1) Does anyone have any update when the 2017 e-Golf may be available?

When most or all of the 2016's are all sold at your local dealership

(2) How close do existing Golf's come to the actual stated range?

Depends on how mild or aggressive your driving style is and how much you speed. The e-Golf is better at getting the stated range being an urban crawler, top speed 40 to 45 mph in stop and go traffic and red lights, not blasting down the diamond lane on the freeways in Nor Cal

(3) What kind of discounts have people obtained below MSRP on e-Golfs in northern California?

Depends upon your negotiating skill. If you have to ask, you probably won't do as well, price wise.

(4) How much have people paid to have 240V charging stations installed in their garages?

$300 to 700, depends on length of the electrical run, assuming your existing electrical panel has enough amps to add a 50 amp dedicated line circuit breaker. Add in another $500 to $700 or more for the actual EVSE plug in unit into your NEMA 14-50 outlet, and if you have the skills and tools to install it yourself, or have to pay to have it installed too.

Thanks in advance for answers to my four questions.

IMHO, with the amount of miles that you drive, I'd be more inclined to look at a Chevy Bolt. You are cutting it close in range if you add in bad weather, rain, cold days, etc, all of which cut in to the range the battery will give you.

 

[rihallix]

THANK YOU - this is a great response

Found out the chargers at the office are private (inaccessible) so I have to have 98 miles range guaranteed or I'm stranded. This eliminates the 2016 e-Golf. The 2017 sounds risky. Note that my commute is 98 miles with long portions at freeway speeds.

What do you think about the BMW i3 with range extender vs the Chevy Bolt?

(Does anyone still think I should consider the 2017 e-Golf for doing a 98 mile commute with a lot of that at freeway speeds?)

 

[miimura]

I would not hesitate to buy the 35kWh 2017 e-Golf with your commute. It never gets that cold and when it's rainy, you should slow down anyway. The EPA range is 125 miles which leaves you a 25% buffer. Just make sure you get the fast charge option. There are lots of chargers along your route and a 10 minute charge can take care of any range shortfall due to errands or other unexpected side trips. The main thing I would worry about is mileage. If you do that commute 48 weeks a year, that's 24,000 miles a year. You will have to purchase or buy out the lease at the end. Paying the overage for miles will be prohibitively expensive.

 

[JoulesThief]

I would not hesitate to buy the 35kWh 2017 e-Golf with your commute. It never gets that cold and when it's rainy, you should slow down anyway. The EPA range is 125 miles which leaves you a 25% buffer. Just make sure you get the fast charge option. There are lots of chargers along your route and a 10 minute charge can take care of any range shortfall due to errands or other unexpected side trips. The main thing I would worry about is mileage. If you do that commute 48 weeks a year, that's 24,000 miles a year. You will have to purchase or buy out the lease at the end. Paying the overage for miles will be prohibitively expensive.

I go from about 6 to 6.3 mile per kwh to 4 to 4.5 m per kwh in a steady rain here in Southern California. Part of it is the temperature drop to the low 50's to low 40's when it rains, headlights, and windshield wipers ( no heater or defroster used, or heated seats) and the rest of it is squeezing water out from under the tires, and rolling resistance.

It's such that I refuse to drive my e-Golf in the rain any more, the range is just too reduced for my liking, and the amount of recharging for so few miles driven, IMHO. YMMV, these have been my personal experiences, but from the past 2 winters experiences, the e-Golf will sit parked when it's raining and the TDI will be pressed into service.

 

[miimura]

6 miles per kWh would give more than 120 miles from your 84 EPA mile car, so I don't think that's relevant for most people. Anybody can get 4-4.5 miles/kWh from an e-Golf without really trying in 50-80 degree weather as long as you drive no faster than the speed limit. The EPA rating works out to about 4 mi/kWh.

 

[rihallix]

This sounds too close for comfort. Seems like only the Bolt or i3 Rex have the range needed.

 

[JoulesThief]

This sounds too close for comfort. Seems like only the Bolt or i3 Rex have the range needed.

Drive an i3 Rex on the freeway extensively, before buying. Many have commented that the handling is rather 'twitchy' on the i-3, or that the tires and rain grooves tend to make it a bit of a handful to drive. YMMV, try before you buy.

 

[JoulesThief]

6 miles per kWh would give more than 120 miles from your 84 EPA mile car, so I don't think that's relevant for most people. Anybody can get 4-4.5 miles/kWh from an e-Golf without really trying in 50-80 degree weather as long as you drive no faster than the speed limit. The EPA rating works out to about 4 mi/kWh.

"As long as you drive no faster than the speed limit"

Very few drive in this manner, certainly not in the diamond or HOV lanes here in So California. 80 to 85 mph is the "new" unwritten speed limit that I see most folks in those lanes driving. Too fast for me.

Folks need to be brutally honest in their assessment of how they drive, and their driving techniques and speeds, before buying a BEV car. There's just not that much kinetic energy stored on board in the battery. Driving fast, pushing air out of the way, wastes electricity very quickly, reducing range.

 

[rihallix]

6 miles per kWh would give more than 120 miles from your 84 EPA mile car, so I don't think that's relevant for most people. Anybody can get 4-4.5 miles/kWh from an e-Golf without really trying in 50-80 degree weather as long as you drive no faster than the speed limit. The EPA rating works out to about 4 mi/kWh.

"As long as you drive no faster than the speed limit"

Very few drive in this manner, certainly not in the diamond or HOV lanes here in So California. 80 to 85 mph is the "new" unwritten speed limit that I see most folks in those lanes driving. Too fast for me.

Folks need to be brutally honest in their assessment of how they drive, and their driving techniques and speeds, before buying a BEV car. There's just not that much kinetic energy stored on board in the battery. Driving fast, pushing air out of the way, wastes electricity very quickly, reducing range.

I'll be honest - the commute would look like this:
- 34 miles on 101 in Marin County, typical speeds 65-70mph
- 13 miles on 19th avenue at speeds of 0 - 40mph
- 51 miles on 280 at speeds of 70-75mph

Would a MY 2017 e-Golf comfortably make this commute.

Note that 8 miles from the end of my journey I go up a steep hill after you cross the Golden Gate Bridge.

 

[miimura]

What time of day are you commuting that you can drive at or above the speed limit on 101 in Marin County? I-280 I can understand. People tend to drive there like it's an Indy Car race. That's why there are so many accidents at choke points like Page Mill Rd. in Palo Alto. If you can have some restraint on 280 and keep it under 70, you won't have any problem in good weather. Like I said earlier, you should be driving slower in the rain anyway, so that should also be manageable.

Basically it comes down to your attitude. If you want to make it work, it will, at reasonable speeds. However, if you don't want to change your behavior at all and you don't pay attention, you could be caught short on range and may not make it up the last uphill section of your drive. There is a fast charger at The Village at Corte Madera, so if you're coming up short in bad weather, 5-10 minutes charging there should give you enough to get home.

 

[JoulesThief]

What time of day are you commuting that you can drive at or above the speed limit on 101 in Marin County? I-280 I can understand. People tend to drive there like it's an Indy Car race. That's why there are so many accidents at choke points like Page Mill Rd. in Palo Alto. If you can have some restraint on 280 and keep it under 70, you won't have any problem in good weather. Like I said earlier, you should be driving slower in the rain anyway, so that should also be manageable.

Basically it comes down to your attitude. If you want to make it work, it will, at reasonable speeds. However, if you don't want to change your behavior at all and you don't pay attention, you could be caught short on range and may not make it up the last uphill section of your drive. There is a fast charger at The Village at Corte Madera, so if you're coming up short in bad weather, 5-10 minutes charging there should give you enough to get home.

/\ Will confirm this is a very accurate assessment on driving these new short to mid range entry level electric cars that don't cost that much. IMHO, they are great in 100% urban condition. I'm not yet convinced about their suburb commuter on the freeways capabilites for range yet.

As he says, it comes down to your attitude, your behavior, and your willingness to change and modify some of your driving behavior from being aggressive to being a lot more passive, and letting others pass you all the time. Slow down at the start of your drive, not at the end, when you don't think you have enough range left, because by then, it may be too late. Great range between recharges comes with having the patience of a Saint, and willing yourself to drive a lot slower on average.

I understand few here are retired like me, or have the level of patience I have when driving an electric car, or a penchant for driving slow and smooth, like a fast tortoise instead of like a slow hare. It just works for me, and getting the most mpg's per charge out of my e-Golf. I like efficiency, and will go to great lengths to achieve it.

 

[forbin404]

6 miles per kWh would give more than 120 miles from your 84 EPA mile car, so I don't think that's relevant for most people. Anybody can get 4-4.5 miles/kWh from an e-Golf without really trying in 50-80 degree weather as long as you drive no faster than the speed limit. The EPA rating works out to about 4 mi/kWh.

"As long as you drive no faster than the speed limit"

Very few drive in this manner, certainly not in the diamond or HOV lanes here in So California. 80 to 85 mph is the "new" unwritten speed limit that I see most folks in those lanes driving. Too fast for me.

Folks need to be brutally honest in their assessment of how they drive, and their driving techniques and speeds, before buying a BEV car. There's just not that much kinetic energy stored on board in the battery. Driving fast, pushing air out of the way, wastes electricity very quickly, reducing range.

I'll be honest - the commute would look like this:
- 34 miles on 101 in Marin County, typical speeds 65-70mph
- 13 miles on 19th avenue at speeds of 0 - 40mph
- 51 miles on 280 at speeds of 70-75mph

Would a MY 2017 e-Golf comfortably make this commute.

Note that 8 miles from the end of my journey I go up a steep hill after you cross the Golden Gate Bridge.

Nobody really knows until you get a 2017, but it does look like you could make it...HOWEVER will you get a 240V charge at the end (because 110 won't cut it)

For your kind of commute I recommend a hybrid.

 

[johnnylingo]

What do you think about the BMW i3 with range extender vs the Chevy Bolt?

Heavy commuters will probably want to avoid the BMW i3 due its tires: they're known for frequent flats and generally need to be replaced every 20k miles or so. This was the second largest reason I went with the e-Golf, the first being price.

The Bolt should do better, but we really won't known until there's more of them on the road and a larger data set to go off of.

Many have commented that the handling is rather 'twitchy' on the i-3, or that the tires and rain grooves tend to make it a bit of a handful to drive. YMMV, try before you buy.

This matched my experience driving it on the highway over 60 mph when there were crosswinds. I didn't feel it was unsafe, but it was annoying.

Just make sure you get the fast charge option.

Thought I read somewhere the 2017/2018 model will have a 7.2 kW charger and DCFC standard, but don't think it's been put in writing by VW. I agree that even though you're "cutting in close" on very cold or very hot days when running climate control, the range should be adequate and having a fast charger as an backup would be peace of mind enough for me.

 

[miimura]

Just make sure you get the fast charge option.

Thought I read somewhere the 2017/2018 model will have a 7.2 kW charger and DCFC standard, but don't think it's been put in writing by VW. I agree that even though you're "cutting in close" on very cold or very hot days when running climate control, the range should be adequate and having a fast charger as an backup would be peace of mind enough for me.

Personally, I don't think he's cutting it that close with a 25% buffer from EPA range.

The 7.2kW AC on-board charger is standard on the 2017, but my recollection is that the CCS inlet is still optional on the SE. Stupid decision IMHO.

 

[JoulesThief]

Just make sure you get the fast charge option.

Thought I read somewhere the 2017/2018 model will have a 7.2 kW charger and DCFC standard, but don't think it's been put in writing by VW. I agree that even though you're "cutting in close" on very cold or very hot days when running climate control, the range should be adequate and having a fast charger as an backup would be peace of mind enough for me.

Personally, I don't think he's cutting it that close with a 25% buffer from EPA range.

The 7.2kW AC on-board charger is standard on the 2017, but my recollection is that the CCS inlet is still optional on the SE. Stupid decision IMHO.

With technology going the way it is, I agree, the CCS DCFC charge port for longer trips is a defacto must have on any electric car. Even though I very rarely use it, it's a necessity to have it when you need it. It would be doing VW a huge disservice having that 35.8k battery and no way to get it to 90% in 35 to 45 mins on a 55 kwh fast charger, while having a meal or something, on a longer road trip. That larger capacity makes it rather easy to do 2 hours of freeway driving, recharge while eating a meal, and do another 2 hours of driving before stopping for lodging, a regular 7.2 kwh full equalize recharge, and then hit the road again the next day. That passively cooled battery will continue to be a heat maker if driven hard right before recharging, and it's already hot from being discharged hard prior to recharging. The safety temp mechanism to prevent battery damage will choke that recharging rate right down to protect the cells.

 

[johnnylingo]

Personally, I don't think he's cutting it that close with a 25% buffer from EPA range.

Like I said, I think it would only be an issue on very cold or very hot days when running climate control and thus taking the associated 10-20% range hit. Keep in mind the 2015/2016 models force Eco+ mode when down to the last 8% battery or so. You really don't want to be on a 65-70 mph highway when this happens, trust me. :lol:

 

[JoulesThief]

Personally, I don't think he's cutting it that close with a 25% buffer from EPA range.

Like I said, I think it would only be an issue on very cold or very hot days when running climate control and thus taking the associated 10-20% range hit. Keep in mind the 2015/2016 models force Eco+ mode when down to the last 8% battery or so. You really don't want to be on a 65-70 mph highway when this happens, trust me. :lol:

Been there, done that... Once was enough, twice, I should have known waaaaay better than to try to stretch it from Malibu, CA, where all the EVSE's were parked up and in use. Could not get off the off ramp fast enough, going up hill, trying to get to Bob Smith BMW in Calabasas, CA, parallel to highway 101, to use a 25kwh Chargepoint DC level 2 charger that didn't even want to give 19 kwh for the first 15 minutes. Battery was hot from discharge going up hill. I'll run the battery down to 7 to 10 miles left only if I know the last 10 miles from 18 miles left to 8 left will ONLY be on 40 to 45 mph top speed on surface streets.

A cool battery on one of those ChargePoint DC-100's will gulp at a 21 to 21.5 kwh rate if the remaining charge is low enough and temps stay in check, at least on my 24.2 kwh 2015 SEL battery. I feel a lot better about using those DC 100 Charge Points and their charging rates not doing harm to the passively cooled battery packs on the e-Golf.

 

[rihallix]

Folks,
I want to thank you for the sage advice - even though at times things were in contention with disagreement - witnessing this online disagreement has really helped inform my understanding - knowing that it's not necessarily a clear cut case, at least not in the minds of experienced e-Golf drivers.

Yesterday, on the advice right here on this thread from JoulesThief I test drove a Chevy Bolt, my impressions:
- it was fast, drove like a regular car
- $38k for a Chevy, really? I know there's a lot of EV tech in the car but the switchgear / controls were all Chevy; it felt like a sub $18k cheap rental car
- great entertainment touchpad system, big screen

So today I'm planning to test drive an i3 REX and an e-Golf. I keep coming back to the e-Golf because frankly I love it's shape. It doesn't yell "Keep clear - I'm an EV freak" like the i3. The i3 probably has the interior I know I'll like. I suspect I can negotiate the better i3 REX model with the Harman Kardon and ideally dynamic cruise for the price of a regular one if I'm lucky.

But if I can make the e-Golf MY 2017 work that would be ideal. My thinking:
- it's going to be close but the Golf should make the 98 miles
- first commute I should take it easy
- trying to find if I can charge up at the office (looks unlikely)
- worst case I use the Corte Madera fast charger, but adding 10+ minutes to my daily commute to charge on the way home would be a pain

Regarding the mileage penalties- here's some irony: the alternative is to drive our old Honda Pilot. At ~20mpg and $4.5/gallon the gas cost would be $22 compared to an EV costing around $5 using 12c/KwH from PG&E/my solar panels. The gap almost covers the $18.62 mileage penalty fee for 98 miles x 19c (the i3 REX mileage penalty); but not quite a 25c penalty.

Also I expect to do some business travel and work from home 1 day every other week. So the miles would probably be nearer 19,000. I can either do these and pay the penalty, or drive a gas car a few days a week to keep within the mileage.

My theory is that in 2-3 years by lease return date EV cars will have changed again and with high tech jobs one never knows tenure.

 

[JoulesThief]

If you want to try something interesting and compare quality of build, go to a Mercedes Benz Dealership and nit pick detail go through a MBZ B250 electric car for $44 to 50k, based on Tesla technology. Look at the locks, gauges, switches, and features, including CCS quick charging and photocopy the Monroney window sticker of it. Then go do the EXACT SAME THING with a 2016 VW e-Golf SEL. Make sure you compare the 36k SEL to a 50k MBz electric model. You'll be surprised how little the difference is. Wait a bit, and then try that same comparison with the 2017/2018 VW e-Golf SEL model. You'll be pleasantly surprised and the lack of difference in quality of components and quality of build, IMHO. I just couldn't see the added value in the MBz.

A bit of history... I got the e-Golf as an experiment. I got the e-Golf because I like VW's and I can work on them, I know their systems. I got the e-Golf for what it WASN'T. It WASN'T a statement about my political beliefs, about driving something my peers felt was green, about being part of the early adopter crowd that needed to make a statement about what they drive.


I bought the e-Golf because it WASN'T any of the items mentioned above. I bought the e-Golf because it was a sleeper, a Gray Man, just another car on the road. It looks just like any other Golf out there on the road, unless you are a fan, and know EXACTLY what to look for. Or, you get pissed on by someone at a public EVSE charging station because your car LOCKS the charger handle to the car, and freeloading mooching EV car drivers that feel they are entitled to free recharges and free driving can't pull the charge handle from your e-Golf and steal it before YOUR e-Golf, that was there first, is finished recharging. As a result, if you use PUBLIC recharging EVSE's. and you have a LOCKER charge port, with no option to disable, you have an OBLIGATION to move your car as soon as it's done recharging, and don't sit on a recharging station as a parking spot, because its NOT a parking spot, it's a public recharging /refueling station.

You get around this social stigma by just always refueling/ recharging at home, with your own EVSE station. Be INDEPENDENT, get off of public EVSE recharging stations. You can thank me later for this public announcement. EV car sales are growing faster than the public charging infrastructure is to recharge them when not at home. That makes for lines and waiting for a recharge, not a good use of ones time.

You are going up and down a lot of hills on your commute. If you buy a 2018 e-Golf, My advice is to stay in the slow truck lanes on the up hills, until you get a much, much, much better feel for the range of the battery on the 2018 models. Going up hills fast is a HUGE drain on the battery pack, and will wreck your Guess O Meters ability to accurately portray how much range you have left. On my 'fuel' gauge, I figure 5 miles per mark left on the cars range, on FLAT ground, on a 2015 model, for safety reasons, on the freeway. On a 2018 model, when they get here, each mark should be upped to 7.5 miles per tick mark on the gauge, on AVERAGE. If you have big hills to climb, or you are going up in elevation, the miles per tick mark are going to be a lot less at the end, when the battery is nearing going empty. If you drive the same speed as the rest of the crowd with the "herd mentality", your GOM will possibly leave you stranded. Conservation is the name of the game with these new electric cars, you need to conserve battery charge, if you have a long commute, at the outer edge of it's range on a full recharge. Slow down, that's the best advice I can give you... and learn to conserve your cars momentum. One foot driving is lazy driving, you can do much, much better on range by learning when and when NOT to use the regen braking feature.

I liken driving an e-Golf efficiently to being a fast tortoise... run at steady state, not much change in speed or velocity. Delta in speed or throttle position on flat ground is your enemy. The slow hare might beat you to the finish line, but who cares, there's nor prize or reward, is there? Run your own race, with your own strategy, not theirs, which is the rat race, stomping on and off of pedals to speed up and slow down. It's much less stressful.